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Who knows the truth (THE ANSWER)

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Who knows the truth (THE ANSWER)
I recently made several post titled Who Knows the Truth About Digital. I received several replies, comments and e-mails with alot of conflicting information. However today I received an e-mail with enough data and supporting information that finally makes sense. I am not interested in what might be possible with digital photograpy providing I spend thousands of dollars on software and thousands of hours learning how to make it make things better. So here it is.
" When people says they've made 20" x 30" prints you need to ask who their audience was, how closely the prints would be scrutinized and what the subject matter was. For a high-contrast, high-detail image, viewed closely by people who actually know what a sharp image looks like (e.g., a photographer or photo editor) you need 300 PPI of actual image data on the output. In other words for a 2000 x3000 pixel RAW image you could make a maximum of 6.6 x 10 inch print. I work as an image-processing engineer for a medical products company and I've run tests comparing 300 PPI images to the same images at 240 PPI and my colleagues and various amateur photographers CAN tell the difference.
Now, if your intended audience is just nontechnical friends and family you can get away with lower resolution. Likewise if the images are going to be viewed from some distance you can get away with less. And also if the original image is soft or low contrast you can get away with less. That's why people say "it depends".
The other thing to remember is that just because YOU can't see the problems doesn't mean your viewer can't. I have a friend who has some 8x12 prints he made from his Oympus E20 that's he's very proud of. All the high-contrast edges in them have serious "staircasing" but I don't have the heart to tell him.
But the math is inexorable: fine-grain film can resolve about 90 lp/mm. a line-pair takes a minimum of 2 pixels so that requires 180 pixels/mm. The best medium format lenses aren't quite that sharp - maybe 70 lp/mm
(140 pixels/mm). But since you shoot medium format (I shoot 6x7) you can appreciate this: the image area of a Hasselblad frame is 56x56mm, which as you can see above, works out to 7840x7840 pixels - a whopping 61 megabytes!
The other key difference beteen digital and film is the transfer curve. Digital hits a wall at the top and bottom of the transfer curve whereas film falls off gracefully. That's why digital shadows get blocky and digital highlights get blown out. Even when you digitize film you can retain its advantage because scans are 14 bits whereas digital camera images are (usually) 8 bits.
I shoot everything from digital to 35mm to medium format. I love digital: it's very convenient and for many things it's "good enough". But for critical images viewerd critically by critical observers it doesn't come close to film."
One thing that you said I don't understand is that you were
going to send JPEGS to a pro lab for printing. Why JPEGS?
If you want pro results you need to shoot RAW and convert to TIFF for any serious work. JPEGS are strictly for web images and speed. Many thanks F5Foley
vwpilot (not verified)
He does have some points in there, but he is selling himself and digital short imo in many areas.

If you want to take a digital file and not worry about any post processing or learning how it works, then digital IS NOT for you. Taking a digital photo is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to producing a digital file.

I know of many photographers, critical judges, that have been shooting digital and find it, with the right post processing, to be as good as film in almost every way. Check out this comparison, this was done when the 3mp D30 was the hot camera to have and you will find that some very critical eyes find it to be every bit as good as slide film.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/d30/d30_vs_film.shtml

Beyond that you have quality photographers every day making enlargements and being quite happy with them. I have 300dpi 10x15s made from a 2.7mp D1h jpeg file that have been looked at by very critical eyes and have been given the thunbs up as just as good as film. DSLRs files handle resizing very well and can produce great images after some work.

But it does take work. You need to use several programs and spend some time with the file if you are really going to make a quality large print. Its not going to happen easily, you will need to learn how to do it, buy some software and have a good computer to work on. But it can certainly be done.

Now I am not going to dispute anything your email writer said. I dont know his qualifications and I dont know what his knowledge is, but I do think that he is either seeing poorly processed images or has an unbelievably critical eye, far beyond what almost anyone can see.

I do not pretend to have the most critical eye, I proabably dont, but I have had prints looked at by some critical eyes, I have also seen other photographers such as Moose, David, and others be completely satisfied and pleased with digital output. These are not guys that are regular every day joes that do not know what a good sharp photo is, these are well established and experienced photographers.

So anyway, I dont know what your looking to get out of your prints, but I would say that with some learning and some dedication to the digital world, you can be very happy with the current crop of digital cameras available. I guess unless you are doing larger than 20x30 prints and selling them exclusively to people who are looking at them with loupes.
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Camera images are usually 8 bit? Obviously this person is not really that familar withdigital cameras, or at least not ones such as thd D100, D1x, etc. As for needing 300 ppi, this just really isn't true. With film perhaps it is since upsampling film images upsamples the grain as well. Digital though has no grain and upsamples quite well.
Bob JohnsonEarthbound LightNature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond http://www.earthboundlight.com
pnelson (not verified)
Camera images are usually 8 bit? Obviously this person is not really that familar withdigital cameras, or at least not ones such as thd D100, D1x, etc .

"Usually" means "most of the time" and YES camera images are USUALLY 8 bits. Raw files that are converted to TIFF with appropriate RAW converters CAN be 12 bits but only some photographers do this and they only do it some of the time. The vast majority of digicam-created images in the real world are 8 bits. This is similar to the question of color gamut. Most DSLR's are capable of creating images in AdobeRGB but the vast majority of images are created in the narrower-gamut of sRGB.

As for needing 300 ppi, this just really isn't true. With film perhaps it is since upsampling film images upsamples the grain as well. Digital though has no grain and upsamples quite well.

Upsampling does not add detail. I was the original poster whe sent him the email and I work as an image processing engineer. So I'm VERY familiar with digital signal processing. The question comes down to information content. The amount of information can you capture is limited by sampling density. A 2000x3000 pixel sensor places a (relatively low) upper limit on the information content. Upsampling doesn't increase it.

Of course film grain also imposes an upper limit but for fine-grain film it's pretty high. Shoot an AF or ISO test chart and you'll see that it's close to 100 lp/mm (200 samples/mm). In real life people don't shoot test charts, but the camera doesn't know the difference between two lines on a test chart and two eyelashes or hairs on the head of a model.

As I described in an earlier post, I've done controlled experiments showing knowledgable observers test imapes at 240 and 300 PPI and they COULD tell the difference.

Not only that, but because of the Bayer array, a sensor like the one on the D100 has an even lower number than what 2000x3000 implies because it doesn't have a separate luminance "channel". I saw an interesting test recently using an ISO 12233 test chart showing the Foveon S9 (3 MP) having higher resolution than the Canon 10D (6 MP). It may seem counterintuitive but it makes perfect sense because of the Bayer array. (the test was 2 issues ago in PC Magazine - see for yourself)

Digital is "good enough" for many things. As I explained here in an earlier post, viewing distance, viewer's expectations, image content and sharpness, etc, all factor in.

But people who think it it's "as good" as film have never done controlled side-by-side comparisons Also, keep in mind that there is a REASON why people go out and spend $20K+ for Imacon and Sinar and other medium-format digital backs for studio photography, and it isn't because they're just showing off how rich they are. It's because large, high-pixel-count sensors (i.e. high information content) MATTERS. You can't fake it afterwards in Photoshop.

It's a little bit like the debate about zooms versus primes. For many photographers zooms are "good enough", and certainly if they let you get the shot when changing into another prime prevented you from getting the shot, they're better. But if you're taking a shot where edge-sharpness, image contrast, brightness uniformity or rectilinear charactersitics really matter, zooms don't come close.
pnelson (not verified)
to F5Foley:

I do NOT appreciate having my personal email to you posted on the web!

Even though it was substantially the same as a post I made in an earlier thread and even though you probably meant it as a compliment it's still rude and unacceptable to post someone's email publically without their permission.
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There are just too many great prints this large that have been made to ignore. To say it matters therefore is a subjective judgement.

As for 8 bits versus 12, my point is that if we constrain ourselves to the lowest common denomenator, we will guarantee ourselves results to match. That hardly makes for a worthwhile discussion though.
Bob JohnsonEarthbound LightNature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond http://www.earthboundlight.com
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This on going arugument over “which is best quality” never ceases to amaze me.
Quality is subjective at best.
Some folks like digital some folks like film. Some like Coke some like Pepsi.
If you get the results you want from the format of your choice, GREAT keep up the good work.

Thanks
Mark Houston
pnelson (not verified)
Some folks like digital some folks like film. Some like Coke some like Pepsi.

That reply is really too facile and the analogy to Coke and Pepsi is poor. Whether you like Coke or Pepsi is purely a matter of your subjective reaction to them and none of the things that make you prefer one to the other are under your control. A photography forum dedicated to Coke and Pepsi would thus be very boring and useless.

The other problem with that analogy is that this isn't a case of Coke VERSUS Pepsi. The substantial majority of serious photographers who I know shoot several formats and mediums. So it's more like asking WHEN to drink Pepsi versus WHEN to drink Coke. I bought my first digital camera to use as a replacement for Polaroid in studio test shots. Since starting digital photography I shoot more Medium Format than EVER.

And with photographic technology likes and dislikes can be elucidated if you can clearly and articulately express the characteristics you want and why you prefer one medium over another. Besides, having enough detailed technical understanding of the underlying technology and tools increases your chances of getting the results you like. With Coke and Pepsi it's out of your control so understanding doesn't help.

If you are already getting the results you like, great. Most of us have goals to take better photos, more consistently and more easily. The requires understanding, insight, and clarity.

Suppose someone posted, "I tooks a photo of my football team but the faces were too fuzzy to blow up to individual shots" Well, "fuzzy" is a fuzzy word. So we could have a useful discussion about sharpness versus resolution, about lenses, about technique (tripods?) about file formats (JPEG -vs- RAW), film versus digital, etc.

In the end we might be able to help the poster solve his problem but along the way we could bring up lots of important technical information.
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Please forget all the math and other nonsense of the e-mail that you received.

My advice is trust your eyes. Buy or rent the camera you want. Make sure you know how to use and process digital. Shoot some images and make the enlargements.

If you like them then continue to use it. If you don't then stick with film.

It is that easy.

I am a pro. In July 02, I bought the D100 as a test camera expecting it to be nothing more than a novelity. I now do most of my portrait work with it.

Again, trust you eyes not some math.

Philip
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I just noticed that Peter registered two days ago on September 15. Now he is the resident expert on the failings of digital.

Consider the source.

Go to quality sources like the the two trade magazines - Professional Photographer and Rangefinder . They give a very unbiased opinion about the strengths and weakness of both film and digital.

One thing that I have notice in the last two years is the mix of photographer highlights. Two years ago the equipment that was used to take the images were almost 90% film. Today it is about 75% digital. Of the digital group it is about 70% DSLR vs 30% digital backs.

Anyone (including me) can write a post without you knowing their real qualifications.

Go to a quality source for your answer and still trust your eyes.

PS
Check out Peter's other post.

http://www.nikondigital.org/discuss/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=phototools&Number=12595&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
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To Peter Nelson

When I made the post I wasen't aware that you had already posted it. I didn't disclose who wrote it. The reason I did it was that I was so impressed with you response I wanted others to read it.

My apologies
F5Foley
vwpilot (not verified)
Quote:

But people who think it it's "as good" as film have never done controlled side-by-side comparisons




Did you check out my link to a side by side test with Provia slide film and a D30? http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/d30/d30_vs_film.shtml How about a real side by side comparison with the result that digital is just as good as film. And this was done by some very experienced people.

Quote:

Conclusion (Tentative)

I was not prepared for this result. While I expected that the D30 would account itself well I never anticipated that it would actually produce an image that in most ways is superior to film. I'm drawn to the unavoidable conclusion that the Canon D30, when shooting in RAW mode, is able to produce comparable images to Provia 100F scanned on a high-end scanner. Now, ain't that a surprise?





Foley, what is your take on what others have said? How do you hold others responses here in relation to Peter's? How are you leaning? Interested in your feelings after reading all the responses.
pnelson (not verified)
Did you check out my link to a side by side test with Provia slide film and a D30? http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/d30/d30_vs_film.shtml How about a real side by side comparison with the result that digital is just as good as film. And this was done by some very experienced people.

That Luminous Landscape article has been very controversial since it came out. It has several serious methodological problems including not using comparable magnifications and also using subjective evaluations of sharpness. Since there exist standard, easy-to-use methodologies for measing digital image sharpness and standard tests, i.e., the ISO 12233 test chart, why not use them? DPReview does.

Also keep in mind that Luminous landscape has a reputation for making rather breathless claims about technology. They were the same ones who said that the Epson 2200 printer had solved the metamerism problem, for example.
pnelson (not verified)
Again, trust you eyes not some math.

Trusting your eyes only makes sense if you have trained eyes.

I've been doing photgraphy for 35 years. I worked my way through college as a newspaper and commercial photographer. I work as an image-processing engineer for a company that makes (digital) medical and scientific display devices. I'm also on several local artists committees. So I've seen a LOT of photography: pj, amateur, commercial, and artistic, analog and digital.

The whole reason I switched from 35mm to MF was because I started doing studio photography with Portra 160 NC and found it to be too grainy in 35mm to make 8x12 prints. So maybe my standards are just higher, but when I was just starting off in high school they didn't used to be. The danger of trusting your eyes is that as you learn more your eyes will get better. What they used to tell you was OK won't be anymore.
pnelson (not verified)
I just noticed that Peter registered two days ago on September 15. Now he is the resident expert on the failings of digital.

Actually I am. I'm a design engineer who writes digital image processing software for scientific and medical display systems. Perhaps the fact that our products cost a quarter of a million dollars gives me different standards, but the principles are the same. And I have lots of experience recognizing image processing artifacts and the limitations of just what you can do with a limited number of samples.

Obviously, the fact that I'm buying a low-end camera like the D100 means that I recognize that a digital camera is "good enough" for many things. But there's also a lot of B/S floating around in the world of digital photography and as an engineer I have an obligation to dispel it.
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Quote:

But there's also a lot of B/S floating around in the world of digital photography and as an engineer I have an obligation to dispel it.




That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, it is not the opinion of most people using digital. So what you call BS is not BS to most of us. We are entitled to our opinion and resent when you claim to have the definitive answers.

Philip

Philip
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Peter is entitled to his opinion as is everyone else. The idea though that someone's opinion is more important than someone else's is simply wrong. Could we end this thread please?
Bob JohnsonEarthbound LightNature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond http://www.earthboundlight.com
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The danger here is simple. If one allows people to claim that a technology is not adequate or in some way useless. Then we allow a distortion of facts.

It extrenmely important that new people coming into digital from film or from scratch get a balance view of opinions rather than allow one person to become the offical expert (I for one am a serious amateur but I know what I see) on a subject. We dont even allow Moose that privelage :-)

To debate is to inform.

If you read the whole of all the many threads predominately started by F5Folley (great threads by the way) then you can build up an impression of the issues involved.

Of course others have written extensively on these issues on line and in magazines but open debate is very usefull in a democratic enviroment.

Peter has indictaed that he prefers Medium format over 35mm for "quality" many feel that 10" x 8" are the only real "standard". So digital will ABSOULETELY fail against some of the "standard" in some or maybe most cases.

What the defenders of digital are trying to achieve here is a balanced view, which is that digital is extremely excellent in many many cases. Let alone the fact that its a great learning tool, my photography would never have got going if I'd had to shoot 1 or 2 rolls wait for the results and go back out again. I shot literaly hundreds of rolls of digital film whilst learning some elements of composition and light.

Its great to be able to read about a subject area then just go out and experiment.

One simply has to learn (thats what the forum is for after all) where it fits in your war chest of tools whilst fighting for the best light ompostion etc.

As to killing threads because they go on a bit, Bob, why dont we request stopping posting images!! some of these threads have gone on for ever :-)

My last comment is really to everybody, its great to see serious debate happening in a friendly manner which this fourmn is so typical of, where as others just go to name calling.

regards and happy debating to one and all.

P.s. one great idea when joining the forumn is to fill out all your details then people can look you up.
Steve Wyman
[]info@stevewyman.net[/]
www.stevewyman.net
pnelson (not verified)
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, it is not the opinion of most people using digital. So what you call BS is not BS to most of us. We are entitled to our opinion and resent when you claim to have the definitive answers.

Look, this is the EQUIPMENT forum of a very technical topic, not a poetry workshop. We are here to discuss TECHNICAL issues - bits, bytes, pixels, voltages, weight, millimeters, dollars and cents. Discussing technical topics requires a certain mindset - precision, accuracy, clarity, objectivity etc. PHOTOGRAPHY includes art, aesthetics, etc. But photographic EQUIPMENT is engineering.

So what does the "that" in your first sentence, above, mean? Be specific. I said many things. Most of the things I said are NOT a matter of opinion. In a technical topic like this attributes like resolution, dynamic range, sampling error, gamut, are MEASURABLE.

I've repeatedly said that the how ACCEPTABLE a 100 PPI print is depends on many subjective variables.

But OBJECTIVE statements such as saying that Bayer-array sensors have lower resolution than implied by their pixel-count or that 6MP sensors' resolution don't come close to finegrain 35mm film are not opinions, they are easily measurable using objective means.

Lots of people say that there is no benefit to printing at higher than 200 PPI. Go to my website where I have hi-res scans of prints made at various resolutions and see for yourself whether that's true.
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To Peter and Foley and all:

I think your posts are great! But, be mindful of others' opinions and appreciate them.
This is obviously an issue that everyone shall have individual biases on, but for some of us (like me), it is very helpful in determining what the proper route to go with post processing for 8x10, 11x14, 20x30. I have been constantly befuddled at enlarging digital images. With in camera sharpening on high, my scale ups in PS, even using the 10% steps suggested by many, leave something to be desired to me at least, beacuse I like to look at the pixels or grain structure in the print. To customers who frame them, they looks sharp. With the in-camera sharpening on low and then with some unsharp mask and rescaling in PS using the 10% rule, they appear to be in much beter shape.
I have not yet tried to rescale them upward to 20x30 and also reduce the 300dpi down to 100ppi or 200 ppi, but I wait and read patiently for all your comments as to what the best route is.
I am aslo debating on what image sharpening program is better than PS. One of these days whent he wife and family leave town for the weekend, I shall be able to do nothing but sit at the computer and read your posts and experiment. That is what we all used to do int he drakroom maybe ages ago, right?
Keep the commentary coming! We can all learn from it.

best regards

TD paulius
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Quote:

But OBJECTIVE statements such as saying that Bayer-array sensors have lower resolution than implied by their pixel-count or that 6MP sensors' resolution don't come close to finegrain 35mm film are not opinions, they are easily measurable using objective means.




And according to all engineering studies on flight, a bumble bee can not fly! Their bodies are too heavy for the area of their wings to achieve lift.

What we have learned about resolution is that we are comparing apples to oranges. All of our early suppositions on the amount of resolution needed to equal film were wrong. Is it the lack of grain? Is it something else? Whatever is different, it has changed our way of calculating. Many, if not most of us, now believe that we don't need a 20 mega pixel imager to equal 35mm film.

By the way bumble bees can fly.
pnelson (not verified)
And according to all engineering studies on flight, a bumble bee can not fly!

That's on old urban myth. And the fact that you cite it proves my point about the importance of discussing things rationally and objectively.

Many, if not most of us, now believe that we don't need a 20 mega pixel imager to equal 35mm film.

So? What does that have to do with resolution? Half the photgraphy I do is digital but that doesn't give me any illusions about its limitations.

This is an EQUIPMENT forum and requires a certain precision in communication. We're discussing engineering andf physics questions. I'm willing to accept the idea that there are different ways of measuring the optical performance of a system. I use things like lp/mm or MTF, etc. DPReview uses LPH on an ISO12233 chart. Maybe you don't think any of these give digital a fair shake. But if you are right that objectively digital is better than those tests suggest, what is your objective test?
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Quote:

This is an EQUIPMENT forum and requires a certain precision in communication. We're discussing engineering andf physics questions.




This is a PHOTOGRAPHY equipment forum. Thus the main point is the final results, ie. the photograph.

My point is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to judge a photograph by using scientific engineering objective standards. The only way to judge a photograph is by SUBJECTIVE standards, ie. if it looks good to your eye, it is good.

The reason this is true is that photography is an illusion. It only represents the real. Therefore, only the final results should be judged and it needs to be judged subjectively. Thus the widely varied opinions.

If you can judge photography objectively then there are right and wrong opinions. According to Peter, my opinions and that of the moderators of this forum are wrong. Science has proved us wrong.

Enough said.

Philip

PS
Take a look at David's post in the original thread. Also do a search and check out Moose's opinions on the same topic. I guess they aren't engineers. They are only humble professional photographers and their opinions are wrong.

http://www.nikondigital.org/discuss/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=phototools&Number=12055&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
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I'm an intutive engineer myself these means 2 things

I dont read the manual first I try things to gain an understanding
I dont quote long words to prove what I can see by technical measures. which is an issue sometimes

I respect people whom come from the other direction and employ 95% of the read the manual and talk the talk type poeple.

The bootom line is for example that I get the best results by switching sharpening off in camera, donot use auto white balance etc etc.

scale up or down in size using PS to resize in step.

Then I sharpen as the last step in any post processing prior to printing.

This may or may not work for you.

Peter as per my previous post if you fill out your details or post your web site address we (I'd) love to come visit and see your data, it all adds to our understanding.
Steve Wyman
[]info@stevewyman.net[/]
www.stevewyman.net
pnelson (not verified)
My point is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to judge a photograph by using scientific engineering objective standards.

But De gustibus non disputandum. So there's no point is discussing opinions - it's like the Coke -vs- Pepsi someone mentioned here - a waste of time.

Compare science versus religion. People have been debating the same religious topics for 1500 years and no one has won the debate - the same issues and topics are still being discussed.

But science has advanced AMAZINGLY during that time, to the point where now we have DSLR's. That's why I think objective discussions are more useful - they get somewhere.

pnelson (not verified)
Peter as per my previous post if you fill out your details or post your web site address we (I'd) love to come visit and see your data, it all adds to our understanding.

Sorry - I thought it was obvious from my email address -- www.studio-nelson.com

BTW, how come everybody wants to have philosophical discussions in this thread about epistemology but no one wants to answer my questions about hot pixels?

1. Do manufacturers have some minimum "acceptable" level of hot pixels?

2. Do sensors get new hot pixels over time? If so, how/why? Spontaneous failures of ordinary semiconductor devices (e.g., PC RAM) are rare unless subject to unusual stress, e.g., static discharge so why would sensors be different?

3. Are CCD sensors more or less subject to spontaneous failure than CMOS?
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As I've said, Peter is entitled to his opinion. I disagree with it as to, it seems, the majority of other posters here as well as the majority of expert opinions published elsewhere. Never mind that he is outnumbered though. Perhaps he fails to realize that and remains unconvinced even though he is a brand new D100 owner. Peter has invaded many online digital forums of late asking what the difference is between the S2 and D100, about hot pixels, about CCD cleaning and other newbie questions. I think we should cut him some slack.

Peter, I also think that most people post in online forums to learn something, to interact with other shooters, and simply for enjoyment. If you aren't finding this or other sites to your liking,you might think twice about why you post so much. Just a thought. You are entitled to your own opinion, after all.
Bob JohnsonEarthbound LightNature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond http://www.earthboundlight.com
pnelson (not verified)
Peter, I also think that most people post in online forums to learn something, to interact with other shooters, and simply for enjoyment

I interact with others and get enjoyment from actual shooting. I usually post to learn something. But as I noted above, when I ask a straightforward technical question, as I did about hot pixels, or as I did about CCD cleaning, I don't get much hard information. Whereas if we have a philosophical discussion EVERYBODY joins in.
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Ok, The CCD question was asked and answered. Its been asked and answered many times before. Search the archives. Read moose's process and test as an engineer thats what you should do. you dont have to like or find the answers adequate many of us have already.

As to the pixel question. Some of those can only be answwred by nikon. Fact not fiction. the other elements will be answered I guess when people come on line. I happen to be online all day to day doing some work so I'm here to responded, over the weekend I may not be. Sometimes when we ask a question it takes time for somebody with the knowledge to show up. give it a few days and you may be suprised.

regards and happy posting.
Steve Wyman
[]info@stevewyman.net[/]
www.stevewyman.net
pnelson (not verified)
Ok, The CCD question was asked and answered. Its been asked and answered many times before.

See, here's the problem - and I admit I have this on other forums, too I've been doing photography for 35 years; I paid for college doing photography; My undergraduate degree is in the physiology of human visual processing and I work as an image processing engineer and before that I wrote inkjet drivers, I've been doing digital photography for 2 years and studio for 3. So I know a lot of stuff, both theoretical and practical. But there's TONs of things I'd like to know more about.

I'm also pretty good at searching the web. So when I ask a question I'm hoping to find people who know MORE than I do and can answer questions I CAN'T answer myself or find out in a simple Google search.

In my CCD question I recounted all the ways I had already seen for cleaning CCD's. By doing that I was hoping to avoid rehashing old stuff. But what I don't know is if there's a good basis for choosing among these - is one better, safer, more reliable, less-likely-to-void-my warranty than another?

It's like black and white inkjet printing. There are a number of major approaches to the problem each with their own advantages and disadvantages, and each producing distinct results. There's no method right for everyone, but it IS possible to compare them, and to compare the results, so you can at least have a basis of making a non-arbitrary decision. Lots of people have done this and there are forums you can go to for it. On my website I have scanned output examples of several methods and a discussion of dithering algorithms as my partial contribution. I was hoping to find something like that for CCD cleaning, not just a rehashing of methods that you and I have both heard a million times.
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I know for a fact that references to the most generally accepted sensor cleaning methods have been posted here before, but if you want one of the best and don't want to search the forums as has been suggested, try Nicholas R's great site.

Also, I might suggest that being condescending towards other posters on the forum isn't the best approach for getting people to help. Again, just my opinion.
Bob JohnsonEarthbound LightNature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond http://www.earthboundlight.com
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Joined: 04/13/2002
Cool Bob, thats the link I could not find earlier. The only thing I didot like about this "method" was that you make your own. For the number of times I clean It cheap and easy to just ue the correct ones form eclipse people.

Peter, I'm bowing out of this conversation now if I can, as I'll just carry on with whose got the most experience thing.
my experience with photography is just 18mths old that doesnot mean that I and others donot know what were talking about. Its all digital.

Why find another method when mosses actually works isnt that reinventing the wheel for no good reason.

Now if you'd put the time and effort in to try his method you have something to complain about.

Ive got nothing to prove just trying to help out new guys on the forumn whom want pointers.

enough said by me anyway :-)

regards
Steve Wyman
[]info@stevewyman.net[/]
www.stevewyman.net
mbetea (not verified)
I as far as cleaning went, you were not asking for what methods people used? Were we supposed to submit a log with our technical findings and reasoning for the method we chose? I don't know what prove to provide other than I've cleaned it 2 times now and it's spotless.

This is the third such web forum I've read your posts on. And the third one with the same outcome. Usually it's not what you say or ask, but how you say or ask. We're not all geniuses here, most of us are just common joes enthralled by the fantasy known as photography.
pnelson (not verified)
Why find another method when mosses actually works isnt that reinventing the wheel for no good reason.

That's what I want to know! Obviously the fact that there are so MANY different methods implies that maybe not everyone agrees that his method works that well. Right now I don't need to clean my CCD but when the time comes I'd like to have a good, logical basis for choosing one method over another.

People post on the Yahoo Digital Black and White Printing group all the time asking for comparisons between BW printing methods and advice about how to choose one or another. Most people don't think that's unreasonable. Many people have tried different methods and can speak from personal experience about the pro's and con's of each one. So why is it unreasonable to expect the same for CCD cleaning methods?
pnelson (not verified)
Were we supposed to submit a log with our technical findings and reasoning for the method we chose?

I have a tutorial on my website about inkjet printing on canvas that has exactly that. Lots of experimenters all over the web on various technical topics, in photography, ham radio, astronomy, electronics, auto repair, gardening, etc, do exactly that. That's the great thing about the web is that people can do research, make discoveries, and share them. So while you personally might not have done that, maybe when you were researching the topic you discovered one.

Some people like to make decisions systematically. Why is that unreasonable? We don't just pick the first camera, PC, car, gym, bike, etc, that comes along and seems to basically be "OK". We try to be selective and pick the best one among a number of choices for our purposes. Is that unreasonable?
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Joined: 02/03/2003
Anyone else see Peter's biography?
Check it out here at his web page .
I liked the part of his webpage that stated: "I hope my biography is an inspiration to others. Remember that anyone with a little imagination can have an exciting life."

Does this mean that fantasy or science fiction novel writers have the most exciting lives?
pnelson (not verified)
Does this mean that fantasy or science fiction novel writers have the most exciting lives?

I think writers in general have exciting lives. Garrison Keillor says that, "writers don't have problems, just material".

I'm working on a couple of new biographies, also fictional, but a little less outré than that one. My ultimate goal is to have a selection of biographies including a real one and let people choose among them. The closest thing to a real one now is on: http://studio-nelson.com/photo1.htm
mbetea (not verified)
K, I probably shouldn't but anyways. Look, because some of us hear do not need every scientific fact to back up our decisions because we're too indecisive about what we're doing doesn't make us twits that you seem to try and elude to in your posts. It would probably drive you insane to know that the biggest factor in my purchasing the D100 was because it felt better in my hand than the other 2 cameras I handled.

You're way to full of yourself, sorry for saying it, but that's it. You can't make a post without mentioning that you're some expert "image processing engineer". And you used to "write inkjet drivers", "I've been doing such and such since god created the earth". Based on your credentials I wonder how you do not already have the answer to these questions you ask? It almost seems like you make posts (not just here) about a topic just so you can start an argument and tout how much of a genius you think you are.

As someone mentioned earlier, the bottom line is the image. That being said I'm done with this. I've seen your past "performances" so I know it's not just the people here. I apologize to Dave, Moose and the other mods.

matt
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Joined: 04/19/2003
Peter, very few would quibble with what you are asking. It's how you are asking it and how you react to the answers you do get.

Generally, I have found this to be a reasonably civil discussion board. I'd like to think that new members would help us keep it that way.
Bob JohnsonEarthbound LightNature Photography from the Pacific Northwest and beyond http://www.earthboundlight.com
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Joined: 08/14/2003
Well Jim thanks for asking. I'm just impressed that I stated something that has gotten so out of hand. When I started this I was really just looking for some help in deciding what digital camera to replace my F5 with and if I could achive similar results (Not necessarly the same results) as with 35mm. I have learned there is way more to digital than I first thought. I have seen more terms used (mostly in the processing and printing areas) that I don't have a clue about. I have learned that there is really no set path to follow and it seems like everybody does things a little different. It amazes me how serious some people get in a friendly forum. I have been chewed out by Peter for quoting his e-mail an Gerald for questioning his opinion that I should buy a Kodak DCS-760. I think enough has been said. Lets make a fresh start. I would like to thank Jim, Bob, Philip, Steve and Gavin you have been a great help. To Peter and Gerald life is to short you two need to CHILL a little. Thanks to everyone F5Foley
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Joined: 04/11/2002
Quote:

I have learned there is way more to digital than I first thought.




That sums it up for all most all of us.

What scares me about Canon offering the 300D/Digital Rebel is that people are going the think that they can buy that camera and will get great results from day one. They wouldn't. My parents own a Canon EOS film system. They have seen my professional images and my personal travel images. They asked last week if they should buy the 300D so they can get the same results. I said no, stick with film. With their skill level, film is currently better.

This is a quick summary of my personal digital journey. In 1999 I bought the Nikon Coolpix 950 and used it as a learning tool. I never used it professionally. After three years of experience, I bought the D100 in July 2002 again as a learning tool. I didn't expect to use it professionally. However, the results amazed me. Then early this year, I started using it as my main portrait camera. The ergonomics of the D100 isn't far from perfect. I expect to buy Nikon's next professional level camera (D2x ?). If that doesn't appear in the next 18 months I will buy the Canon 1Ds with a couple of lenses just for the studio (but I digress).

If I didn't have several years digital under my belt, I would have been like many other newbies and said that the D100 was junk. It isn't, you just need to learn to use it and that takes time.

Good luck and whatever you choose.

Philip
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Joined: 07/26/2002
I moved from film to the D1. It took me about ten months before I understood color management sufficiently to get results that pleased me (and my wife who is a much harsher critic). It was sometimes frustrating but I loved (and still love) the process of always learning something new. I now shoot with a D1H and love it.

When people tell me that they want to go digital I describe how much fun it is but also how much work it is if you want satisfactory results. I caution them that the ads that make it look as easy as docking your camera and then getting print are marketing, not reality.

Case in point, someone I know has had a very simple Kodak digital camera for a few years for nothing more than web stuff. This person has come into money and will be buying a new camera and a printer. She has never used a photo printer before or used a photoprocessing program (Photoshop, etc.) What does she want to buy? An Epson 2200!?! Despite my efforts to caution against the purchase she insists on buying this printer because of the samples that Epson sent it looked the best. Again, remember that marketing thing? No doubt the Epson 2200 is a great printer and I would like one some day (I just purchased a 1280). But should this be the purchase of someone with no experience processing digital and who has no intention of making gallery quality prints? I fear that she will be nothing but frustrated but she will not listen. Que sera sera.
Toonman (not verified)
Why two Threads on what's basically the same subject?

Cheers
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Joined: 04/13/2002
Thanks F5Foley for your kind words to one and all, THATS what this forumn is all about.

May we ALL shoot in great light


regards

p.s. Toonman - I guess your going to have to read the 4+ threads to find that out :-) some were started to kind of reset the original question as I see it.
Steve Wyman
[]info@stevewyman.net[/]
www.stevewyman.net
Toonman (not verified)
Hi Steve

I read them. They could've all been on the original thread...

Cheers
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